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J's "Questionable" Build
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45474
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Author:  Jimmyjames [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  J's "Questionable" Build

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Author:  WudWerkr [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Eat Drink watches with awe and confusion .... :D

Author:  Alex Kleon [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

:D ....and not for the feint of heart. Eat Drink

Alex

Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

I sure hope you're ready for the $lippery $lope you are about to step on....

Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Don Williams wrote:
I sure hope you're ready for the $lippery $lope you are about to step on....


I think he's already sliding .......... and picking up speed wow7-eyes

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Typically I dip a toe in but in this case I'm going for the swan dive.

I'm already thinking of crazy solutions, hair brained schemes.

Author:  Dreadnuffin' [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Off topic, but are you still singing with the Vagabonds, Jim. ;)

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Ya' mon!

Author:  Robbie_McD [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

All right!
A real live build thread!
How about some pics Jimmy?

Rob

PS - click on my signature for my version....

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

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Author:  Jimmyjames [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Some pictures coming right up!

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

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Author:  Jim Watts [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

".... The glue I've got laying around is Titebond Liquid Hide glue. I glue up the scarf joint and clamp her into submission. All goes swimmingly and I let her dry for a day. ..."
Lots of problems reported with this glue. I assume you figured out not to use it based on this experience. Lot's of great guitars have been built with Original Titebond however. Also you should avoid titebond II & III. Although III works extremely well for gluing side purfling to the binding prior to bending. Both of these glues can creep under stress making them less desirable.

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

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Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Bubba , you may get a guitar built this yr and it may be a excellent job , we shall see . However , have you ever considered a job in writing ? laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe

Author:  Alex Kleon [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Jimmyjames wrote:
At this juncture I've yet to actually buy anything specifically related to Lutherie. Why not you ask? Because I'm trying to figure out exactly what to buy to minimize the "oops, I need this lil' dilly, and that lil' bit" and I've spent a fortune in shipping. I'd rather just kill two stones with one bird and get the whole lot. There's so many choices regarding a build "will the crystals really impart the finest tone to my guitar?". There's a massive amount of tools to do the same job: power tools, PRO-GRADE is announced with thundering authority, laser guided drill presses suitable for Darth Vader's Woodshop. And everyone says this tool is the best. I like tools I can sharpen. I'm primarily concerned with the type of steel a tool is made of. I've no interest in the fancy modern metal, cryogenically frozen to eight atmospheres. I just want it to work and get terrifyingly sharp. So I had to dig through all the sources of said tools and make some decisions. There was a bunch of paper and pencil keenly involved in this process, frantic scratching of graphite and soon I had 27 pages of notes, questions, ideas, a hijacked scheme culled from Cumpiano, random internet "gurus", and of course the folks down at The Official Luthier Forum, whom I might add are clearly the finest people you ever did meet.

It was kind of a mess. The woodworker in me felt as though I was staring at 54/379ths and wondering where I'd find such a ruler? So I set off to simplify. I condensed the entire guitar making process to simplified instructions, it now read on a total of two pages. I had conquered the massive amount of information into a digestible sum. I drew pictures of important measurements that made sense to me. Then I fought to simplify the tool list. I was generally a hand tool person but Cumpiano says "don't do this by hand several times. I needed to research alternative methods to get around buying a router. It wasn't that I didn't want to buy one, it was that I didn't want to own one. I'd routed many a channel by hand, even carved them. Who wants wires and bits they have to buy over and over. I didn't. I discovered lo and behold that guitars were successfully made before the advent of power tools. Dedicated men and likely some women made guitars completely without motors and cords. But how? Slowly I started to see tools that made sense to me. I contemplate each operation and how it will be achieved. Routing the binding seems like the most challenging woodworking part of making a guitar. The idea of a high speed router here makes zero sense to my inexperienced mind, I'm thinking it sounds like a disaster, I see a high speed motor causing outrageous chip out. Then I discover the Gramil and I'm sold, oh it comes with an old fashioned steel blade. I'm smitten with the Gramil, completely full of smit. I recompile my tool list over and over. There's the hardware store list, the specialist Lutherie supply list, dedicated tool company list and then there's tonewoods.

A feature of guitar players is that there's this part of their mind that doesn't grow up. All of us believed in nonsensical middle school era ideas. Clung to them like we were holding on to _The Raft of The Medusa_. Dirty fretboards are "seasoned" and play better, there's wood with "magical" properties if harvested by an axe when planets are aligned. We've all heard them out entire guitar oriented lives. Most if it pure bullspit. So what to choose? In the real world of guitars my only guidebook that's entirely sincere is my experience playing them and what I liked. At seventeen I got my first real guitar, she had an ebony fretboard that was as slick as oil. I was absolutely certain that wood was magic. That fretboard was worth every hour I worked at my crappy teenage job. The guitar itself was a hideous product of eighties hair bands, a fad that I gladly avoided but I was certain the classical guitar designed ebony fretboard was worth it. Later I bought a brand new Martin D1-R, the cheapest Martin I could get that was completely made of wood and there was some rosewood involved. This was the era when Clapton did "Unplugged" and I was hooked on that album and also really glad the days of heavy metal were numbered. Clapton opened up a new world of guitar for me and I was excited about it. I gladly abandoned the electric guitar, a repair shop actually stole my amp claiming they couldn't find it. I didn't care this acoustic thing was a visceral reality that made so much sense. The sound of that Martin with the rosewood was a step in the right direction but it lacked an ebony fretboard that I could glide upon. I noticed that I would routinely over power the top and it would distort. I'm very hard on a guitar, I'm not the guy who in a field picking daisies I'm the guy hitting it with all I've got when the dynamics call for it. The expressive nature of an acoustic guitar completely eclipses the capabilities of an electric and I was exploiting every bit of it. Later I would discover that another form of spruce would tolerate my excessive banging in a Collings OM. This guitar was my first real instrument. Was back to an ebony fretboard, the top could handle the beating. I played that thing eight hours a day. In my old age I will blame Collings for my inept finger joints. An OM was a small guitar but it was LOUD! I like the small, hotrod size, it felt more like an electric with all the benefits of acoustic. Over the course of my life I started to really figure out what I liked in a guitar. I wasn't the sort of person who had a quiver full of instruments. I just kept one and played it. From each guitar I had my own collection of absurd beliefs: ebony fretboards are for people who use the whole fretboard, rosewood backs and ribs are kind of harsh but I liked the volume and the speed of the attack. Some spruce is for gentle fingerstyle players and others for people that abused the strings. Mohagany seemed to usually be a better guitar but the sound was less harsh and the attack a tad bit slower. All guitars sound like utter poo when new, I regarded visiting a guitar store as form of torture because I knew I'd play a few. Bracing: no clue, bridge plate: even less of a clue, effects of other parts such as bindings, purflings, rosettes, mother if pearl were completely unknown. I was sure that a tighter built guitar was a factor so I would wing it with tonewoods that I'd experienced firsthand. I saw no point I trying to build an ultra exotic experiment. The tried and true firsthand experienced woods seemed like the most logical path. Everyone I've known who had a Brazilian Rosewood guitar had cracks and they babied their guitars to the point of not playing them. I don't look at guitars, I play them. I never bought with my eyes but with my fingers and ears.

I made lists, I searched the luthier supply houses, called the local specialized wood guy who basically said he had nothing I could use except ebony. It seemed like the Luthier specific places would have better quality because they knew more about what I was looking for than I did. My local guy didn't understand anything. He thought I could joint ebony and make a fretboard which I could but I seriously doubt it would hold up to real use.

And now a word from our Sponsors...

LMI has the Kit Wizard (more mythical Lutherie references) and compared to anyone else I was most impressed. I could choose nearly any type of material. I like options and I like things exactly like I like them. In the entire marketplace LMI's Kit Wizard is the clear winner. I salute you guys for doing that. Thanks. The other companies seem to have a different focus. Stew-Mac seems to be very tool focused and there's many ingenious ideas, some seem like the greatly improve the speed and accuracy of the job. I've read where people complain about the price of Lutherie specific tools and I think the complainers should make a tool from scratch for a very limited market, do marketing, branding, and experience firsthand the economic realities and then they can complain all they like. I for one am glad someone makes this stuff that's specific to the task. Thank you. These two companies appear to win the race for my money. LMI for the kit and I'm particularly impressed that they will do the parts of the job that can be cost prohibitive or particularly intimidating to do in the beginning for very reasonable prices. I for one am going full tilt on my guitar so I learn as much as possible but I'm glad someone offers these services should something go completely awry. Stew-Mac scores my money for many tools, they clearly have done some homework and provide instructions, demo videos, et cetera.

Individual wood supply companies are probably cheaper but realistically, it's a far greater hassle than the Wizard makes a very complex project much easier. Sold.

My total in tools and materials so far is a staggering $1,455 American dollars. Seems a paltry sum for the experience and skills gained. In subsequent builds I'm sure I'll add to my arsenal of tools and wood but for now all that I can do is pull the trigger.



I think I see a cage match with Hesh in the future! laughing6-hehe :D laughing6-hehe

Alex

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

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Author:  Jimmyjames [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Alex,

I don't participate in cage matches but I do engage in full contact origami.

-j

Related: Kesey wrote _One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest_ entirely on LSD. When I think about the fact that the greatest insight into group formation was written under the influence of a severely mind altering drug and he zeroes in on the struggle perfectly I'm in awe.

Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Jimmyjames wrote:
WudWerkr wrote:
Bubba , you may get a guitar built this yr and it may be a excellent job , we shall see . However , have you ever considered a job in writing ? laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe


In college several Professors urged me to go into writing. One in particular, a brilliant man who taught Philosophy urged this heavily. I wrote the most absurdly obfuscated prose possible for him largely because I was certain that Professors are bored to death of reading the same old dogma and because I found it extremely funny to write. He and I are friends to this day and write each other often. I enjoy writing to people, well writing period. If I would have been born earlier I would've written to Hunter S. Thompson whom I hear would correspond dutifully to anyone who wrote him. Later in life through circumstance I knew a former Cold War era spy that told me "it's the writing of things that makes them clear, too many nooks and hollows in your mind, best to lay it out on paper to see clearly. Later I studied Napoleon and was exposed to his method of planning. He covered ballroom floors with notecards like a _Choose Your Own Adventure_ roadmap of contingency plans. I've never done writing for actual money but I've greatly advanced my personal and Professional self by writing about things to better understand them. I know I sound auspicious when I say this but I'll say it anyway: I'm sure that I was one of the best in my Professional field because I went home and wrote about things that happened during the workday and thought through them, returning the next day armed with insight. It allowed me to see beyond my self and into the real solutions to things that no one else was even considering. It wasn't long before I was making three to four times what my colleagues were making. Colleagues spent their time complaining when they should've been being introspective about what was happening.

Every person throughout history who's written about what they've done provides a road map into their mind that I've really appreciated. Van Gogh is a prime example. You hear stories about how crazy he was but if you read _Letters to Theo_ it's clear the man was a genius on many levels and it made him posthumously famous. Had he not written those letters I doubt anyone would've recognized the fact that he made the single most important discovery in art which affects the sale of every successful product sold to this day. And I will certainly apply his philosophy and technique in the making of my guitar.

So my method is to write about this experience in order to glean as much as I can from it. This forum is the ideal place for it because it's dynamically interactive. I don't have any interest in making any money from it and doubt there is any anyway. It allows you and me to see inside each other's mind and perhaps that stirs the pot for something new. I urge you to write as well, regardless of eloquence or mastery of grammar (clearly I don't put much effort in perfect grammar). I do try, try, try to make things amusing to read because who wants to read laundry lists of actions? But sometimes they too are helpful.

What we're doing, or rather what you fine folks are doing (I'm attempting) is making art, craftsman art. Putting your heart and soul into some wood and metal to make it ALIVE. Over in the factory they're making CNC "machines" not art, devoid of human connection. We've all heard a drum machine and it will never compare to a real drummer. A human drummer with greasy hair has got soul that he puts into every slightly imperfect beat and we humans like it. Just as a CNC machine will never produce a guitar with real soul. When I played a completely handmade guitar for the first time it practically knocked me down. I was in Austin, Texas and a fellow musician was shopping for a Mandolin. To amuse myself I was checking out the offerings and picked up this unknown makers guitar. The first barre F made me think "oh ma lord!" Nearly all new guitars sound terrible to me but this was very different: loud, responsive to my gentle touches, she sang for me. I'm certain what I heard and felt was the soul that was put into the making of the guitar. When all I've ever played was "drum machines" this was a revelation. The people that buy the high dollar machine made instruments do so because they just aren't aware of what's out there. Nor do they understand the benefits of spending money within their own local economy. They choose a drum machine because they don't know any better. The factory is dependent on maximizing profit, the artists on this board are maximizing quality. I've noticed that hand made things I've bought in my lifetime have far outlasted factory made items. In my twenties I bought a pair of handmade boots. It was a considerable sum of money and factory boots were literally ten times cheaper. Twenty years later I still wear those boots daily, they look amazing, and smell like the day they were born. My Cobbler comments every time he resoles them something to the extent of "amazing quality, or there's something very special about these boots" as if he's never seen them before. People everywhere ask me where I got them and there's no adornment to make them stand out but there's clearly a soul to them that people recognize. In twenty years of hindsight I would've spent far more to buy cheap boots and replace them over and over and...

I'm stepping into an established arena where I basically know nearly nothing in order to get to know some of you I let you see into my mind. Writing is surely the best method for that. And while my posts seem inordinately long winded I'm of the opine that we as a society have become too dependent on the bite sized morsels of insight and information. In the era of letter writing it was commonplace and I subscribe to that era because it makes the most sense to me.

I'm avidly reading everyone's posts, learning, scheming, re-evaluating my plans, and writing about what's going on. It does help take my mind off the current state of things. I hope at least someone is enjoying reading all this.


-j

"The written word is not truth but the semblance of truth."
-Socrates



Yep ! laughing6-hehe

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

And a couple o' pictures for the visual types out there...

Laying out her neck. I use a Prismacolor pencil to lay out lines on dark wood. It works superbly and does NOT rub off. When you see the price of these pencils you'll be stunned but they last a very long time.

My first scarf, which went surprisingly well. When I say "Scarf" out loud many times in a row and I end up sounding like a dog.


-j

Author:  DennisK [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Jimmyjames wrote:
Every person throughout history who's written about what they've done provides a road map into their mind that I've really appreciated. Van Gogh is a prime example. You hear stories about how crazy he was but if you read _Letters to Theo_ it's clear the man was a genius on many levels and it made him posthumously famous. Had he not written those letters I doubt anyone would've recognized the fact that he made the single most important discovery in art which affects the sale of every successful product sold to this day. And I will certainly apply his philosophy and technique in the making of my guitar.

What exactly is this "most important discovery"?

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

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Author:  Jimmyjames [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

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Author:  Jim Watts [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

I really like the second picture, It's just like where I live in the fall, Northern mountains of NM.

Author:  Jimmyjames [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: J's "Questionable" Build

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